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| SmokinAces |
Dude I think you used horrible examples. The reason why you look at the credits and see multiple songwriters is because 1) the song may have used a sample and therefore the original writers are credited, 2) the featured artists may have written their own verses and 3) the producers and people involved with the making of the instrumental/beat/composition are credited as writers. You made a good point but you really didn't give any examples of ghostwriters outside of Dre who everyone knows doesn't write. Borrowing lines or flows from other songs is not ghostwriting BTW. Let me see if I can explain it to you this way. Let's say you found out Jungle wrote all of Nas's verses on Illmatic or Rakim had some kid write Follow the Leader. Or Notorious BIG had Lil Cease write Life After Death. You mean to tell me, as lyricists, that they should still held in as high regard as they are? I think not. Honestly, I'm probably the worst rapper I know. But I can flow along with a song that's already written. Anybody can really. So if you call yourself an MC and you do not write your own lyrics, that's not cool IMO. And one more thing, every song is not personal. Some songs are just product, nothing more nothing less. When you as a musician take the time to sit down and pen your own words, it is truly YOU in those words, so it does make a difference. I usually am on track with you on your post, but this one i can't rock with. |
| Posted on May 12, 2010 |
| G0b0t |
I want you to do all the work, and I'll take the credit. Your argument is invalid. |
| Posted on May 12, 2010 |
| E. Jaffe |
I agree that there's nothing wrong with using ghostwriters to make contributions to a track but there is absolutely no reason that someone like Jay-Z, who many consider to be the greatest rapper of all time, shouldn't be writing his own lyrics. For instance, if someone is writing all the Lil Wayne tracks than Lil Wayne isn't the best rapper alive. End of story. He may have a great flow but, in reality, people love him for his punchlines; without those, he's nothing. The bottom line is, if you're not writing at least your verses, you're not a true talent. I'm okay with people writing hooks and bridges but, when it comes to an actual verse, the artist should be in complete control. |
| Posted on May 12, 2010 |
| Bgirl Sly |
What about freestyle MCs? What about samples? What about collaborations with singers? Do all MCs write ALL their songs? No. Should they have credit for ALL of them then? In the movie industry the actors get the credit from the public, not the writers. My point: MCs are performers, and sometimes performers come up with most of their final product, and sometimes they're just the pretty face in front of the mic with the talent needed to make the final product, final. |
| Posted on May 12, 2010 |
| E. Jaffe |
P.S. You're examples with Queen and the Rolling Stones aren't 100% accurate. Mercury may not have written all of the lyrics himself but only band members took a part in songwriting. Same with The Beatles; McCartney didn't write everything but, if he didn't, it was Ringo, Lennon, or Harrison. If an outside party was brought in, it was usually just to make a few alterations. Queen (and the Rolling Stones) were always in complete creative control over the songwriting process. They may have been commercialized but it was their talent that got them there, not a ghostwriter. |
| Posted on May 12, 2010 |
| E. Jaffe |
The difference between actors and rappers are that it's a known fact that actors don't write their own material and the writers of the movie are credited for their efforts. In music, people listen to Ludacris and say "That dude has incredible punchlines". If we found out today that he's never written a single lyric, my opinion of his talent would automatically be diminished. He has a great persona but, in an industry where lyrics are what determines your talent, he'd be fake. Actors are praised for their acting ability; not for their dialogue. (No one credits Tom Hanks for being the genius behind "Forrest Gump") Rappers are praised for their lyrics. That's the difference. |
| Posted on May 12, 2010 |
| Bgirl Sly |
I know, I said sometimes, LOL but sadly that is the way things work for too many MCs |
| Posted on May 12, 2010 |
| 1stround-ko |
I wrote the phrase "1-2-1-2" that EVERY rapper uses. |
| Posted on May 13, 2010 |
| TheBayToLA |
Well God ghostwrote the bible for Jesus, should we crusify him? lol |
| Posted on May 13, 2010 |
| SmokinAces |
First of all, learn how to spell CRUCIFY! Second, your reference makes no sense so maybe you should go back to the drawing board and try to come up with something, I don't know, clever. |
| Posted on May 13, 2010 |
| johnstewart |
i appreciate the (legitimate) commentary. this article was meant to spark conversation. i know that I didnt use the traditional examples people use for ghostwriting (i.i lil wayne v gillie da kid) but i used the examples I gave to prove a point. we only protest ghostwriting/songwriting for rap artists when we dont really care about them. and i am fully aware that when samples are used, those writers can be given writing credit where the sample is used, but in the case of Jay-Z's BP3 singles, whether 17 people were in a room throwing bars and metaphors around or not...it still took a total of 17 writers to complete those songs. regardless of how much they contributed, they contributed enough to receive credit aka $$$ from jay-z's sales and an artist isnt gonna give writing credit to someone who did nothing. when talking about the bands, is the drummer in queen writing for freddie mercury not the equivalent of a producer writing for a rapper? and one of you said that ghostwriters ok, but not for jay-z. why is jay different? what if you found out that a ton of his recent work was written by someone else? would it cheapen the songs? or the artist? both? do you think the writer of these songs matters bc you truly want to believe that the rappers you follow write every lyric? does it really matter? is the end product not what matters most?? also, producers do not receive writing credit unless the actually write. music composition and lyrics are completely different. also. i am aware that biting a flow isnt ghost writing. but it ties into the idea that we dont care if popular artists use the creativity of others. if we 'want our artists to write every line of every verse' part of that songwriting is coming up w the delivery and if he blatantly takes someone elses WHOLE flow...should we as a hip hop community speak against that? or condone it? if 'we' want real creativity from artists, shouldn't we want them to be truly creative and not just lazy? |
| Posted on May 14, 2010 |
| johnstewart |
also. you said 'rappers are praised for their lyrics'. what is it that makes us focus on lyrics in hip hop. there's sooooo much more to a hip hop artist than just lyrics. why do you feel thats the selling point? and if lyrics truly do matter that much in hip hop, why do we continue to pay attention to artists with horrendous lyrical ability?? maybe they have more than lyrics?? so with some lyrics dont matter? |
| Posted on May 14, 2010 |
| SmokinAces |
Again I overstand where you're coming from. But, as much as you want it to be, hip-hop, REAL HIP-HOP, is not the same as other genres. Lyrics do matter to to people who care about the music and lyricism. Let's be real, rappers ain't doing much. Unless you are producing your own music or making your own tracks, rappers only job is to come up with their lyrics. You take that away and you have someone who really has no purpose but to be a face. In R&B, yes, Beyonce or Usher is not wrting all their lyrics. But the main thing they're judged on is the performance of that song, both vocally and when they do shows. Country and rock are genres where, yes, they may be more than one hand involved, but most of the time these hands are members of the band or a sole outside entity. And, again, the performance of the song is the most important factor, although it is looked down upon by rock heads if bands don't write their own stuff. As a rapper you are not required to play an instrument, produce your music, make the beats, mix the record, etc. The only thing you have to do is rap. Yes, you have the live shows, but how many rappers do you know who actually put on an engaging and exciting show? Not many. So all that leaves for them to focus on is lyrics. You take that away and what's the rappers purpose? It isn't even like an original and unique style and personality is necessary anymore. And as much as you try to make it seem the same, SAMPLING A RECORD IS NOT THE SAME THING. I am a producer and have been doing music for 10 years now, learning and being a student of the game. I have done studio sessions and dealt with artists (nothing major but I do have experience.) So I'm fully aware of how things work while making a song. If I do a track with an MC, I may offer suggestions as to how the concept should go, hooks and what not. But that's my job as the producer. The job of the MC (I feel I need to press this fact with you) is to take these suggestions and ideas and incorporate them into written lyrics. At the end of the day, you CAN say Jay-z had 17 writers involved. But I bet that Jay wrote his verses. Because Jay is an MC. Nas is an MC. Jadakiss is an MC. If you wanna give RAPPERS a pass, then fine. But if you want to be an MC or TRUE LYRICIST, YOU MUST BE THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND YOUR OWN LYRICS. Period! |
| Posted on May 14, 2010 |
| johnstewart |
#1 you shouldn't downplay what real artists do. you make it seem as though being a rapper requires zero skill outside of writing lyrics #2 not to be rude at all, but i feel that you have come to think how you do as an 'outsider' and not as someone in the industry...you'd be surprised as how often 'ghostwriting' occurs #3 im still searching for the answer of why hoph hop fans care so much. you keep saying hip hop is different, but why??? why is music not music??? fans of other genres DONT GIVE A SHIT if their artists write the lyrics. at least when compared to hip hop where we feel or at least talk like songwriting = treason against the art form. #4 you can be the driving force behind lyrics without writing them. 'the driving force' is what makes someone a 'rapper' and not just a 'lyricist' #5 id like for you to evaluate why you even listen to/support/make hip hop at all. in the above statement, you basically said that rappers have no musical talent, originality and personality is not required. they put on shitty shows...so ummm....why would you support something that you have such a distaste for? I still have yet to actually give my opinion on this matter. I'm just stating facts. |
| Posted on May 14, 2010 |
| johnstewart |
*hip hop |
| Posted on May 14, 2010 |
| johnstewart |
and btw....in no way am i trying to equate sampling and ghostwriting. you have missed the point |
| Posted on May 14, 2010 |
| SmokinAces |
What facts are you stating? That some hip-hop artists use ghostwriters. That's no revelation. Everyone knows it happens. And you actually are stating an opinion when you say it should not matter if someone writes lyrics. That's an opinion and you are in the minority at that. Let me ask you, what is the job of the rapper if he doesn't write lyrics. I believe I explained pretty clearly what was the difference between other genres and hip-hop but I'll break it down for you. When you listen to hip-hop, or at least most real hip-hop fans do, the lyrics of the song are integral to the song. It has always been the MC's main goal to create hot rhymes to dope beats. Hence why punchlines and metaphors and wordplay and flow are as important in hip-hop as the beat. Only in recent times has the element of writing ones lyrics been trivialized to not mattering. In rock music and country, lyrics are important, yes, but the MAIN focus is the instrumentation and and the performance of the songs. Coldplay has pays attention to their lyrics, but the most important thing for them is come up with great instrumentation and give a killer performance both in the studio and on stage. Hip-hop does not put as much emphasis on the playing of instruments (it's a cool extra if you can do it but not necessary) or the live performance (again good if you can rock but not necessary i.e. 50 Cent). In R&B, the artists do not write all their lyrics, but the FOCUS is on vocal performance and technique. Yes the lyrics are important, but it is how, for instance, Mary J. Blige performs and delivers that song vocally giving it true life. It's the voices that are the artists main instruments that they mastered. Rap for the most part requires no real vocal training, learning scales, perfecting tone, etc. Pop and Dance are more about the music and hooks than the lyrics. Hence why a pop song with horrible lyrics still gets good reviews and lots of sales. Because it's not USUALLY about the lyrics but it is about if the song is catchy, the beat is dancable, it has a good hook. Hence why the actual dance DJ's/ producers are the stars (think Will.I.Am with BEP's most recent album or Dave Guetta or MSTRKRFT). The artist / singer who presents the song still has to have a "marketable" look and engaging personality. That is the pop/ dance artists main focus: THE LOOK. Hip-hop artists honestly are themselves. There is not alot of grooming that goes into them (sans someone like Drake). And, sadly, lots of MC's have gotten by having great lyrics but being as boring as watching paint dry (cough, cough, Nas). So in closing, every genre has different focuses and things that are held in higher regard than others. So while MC's may be held to a higher standard as far as writing their own lyrics, they don't get chastised in other areas that rock or dance or R&B do. One! |
| Posted on May 14, 2010 |
| johnstewart |
You cant compartmentalize the emotions of these genres. To essentially say that hip hop is the only lyric driven genre is outrageous. To those 'outside the hip hop world', hip hop talks about nothing and whatever music they follow speaks directly to them. follow me. obviously, by the way you are defending your love of hip hop, you feel strongly about this. but you are also dancing around the question. why does it matter who writes the lyrics to a rap song? there can be dope ass punchlines, insane use of metaphor, impeccable delivery....and then performed by your favorite rapper. why would it matter? the way we view rappers, they have to embody they words they speak. thats pretty much how we view anyone but lets stick to rap. as long as a rapper embodies the life spoken of in his raps, as long as he can carry out what he speaks of, why does it matter?? i mean, President Obama is known to employ many speech writers (as have many public officials) but when he gives a speech we dont say 'fuck you...you didnt write that' bc he embodies what he said. we can believe the words he speaks bc of how he delivers the information. apply that to rap. then tell me why you disagree lol |
| Posted on May 14, 2010 |
| SmokinAces |
I don't dance around anything man. I gave you the answer. You just don't want to except the fact that things are the way they are. Why if a man sleeps with mad women he's a player, but a female that sleeps with mad dudes is a hoe? It's just that way man. That's the way it was when this music, this culture, was introduced to me and I abide by that. Nas is credited for being a great lyricist. Now if Nas had a ghostwriter (a ghostwriter being someone who is writing the lyrics for an artist and NOT BEING CREDITED AS SUCH) writing Life's A Bitch or Ether, that WRITER should get the credit for being the great lyricist, not Nas. If you are writing the lyrics to the song, you are usually coming up with the punchlines, the flow, and the delivery during that process. A rapper like Fab, or Jadakiss or Lloyd Banks, who are known for having cleaver punchlines, would not deserve said praise if they didn't come up with those punchlines. It would be that way in other genres with their main things too. What if real rock fans found out Jimi Hendrix didn't really play any of his guitar parts on his records? Would real R&B fans accept Maxwell if they found out he never sang any of his songs? No of course not. Because those things matter HEAVILY in those genres. Dr. Dre is my favorite producer, arguably the best IMO. But I would never say Dre is the best MC because he doesn't write his own lyrics. That doesn't take away from the fact that I love his songs and think he is responsible for a large few of the greatest hip-hop records ever. I love Parliament Funkadelic and think George Clinton is a genius producer. But the nigga is not gonna make my top singers list anytime in my life. Yes, a good song is a good song, but if you want to be respected as a MC and lyricist by people who actually care about lyricism and emceeing, you gotta write your lyrics in hip-hop. Whether you think it's right or wrong, that's what it is. I don't know any other way to explain it. As much as I'm writing, a brother needs a gig on this site lol. |
| Posted on May 14, 2010 |
| johnstewart |
so rock and playing guitar = r&b and singing = rap and writing lyrics ?? i dont feel that those equal up that 2 performance elements v 1 written element and you are saying they are equal |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| SmokinAces |
Dude let's agree to disagree man. Because you are not even trying to see where i'm coming from honestly. You have your view and your stuck in it. How do you pose a question and when no one agrees with you, you refuse to accept that maybe you that you could just be wrong. As I said, that is just the way it is. If you don't want to accept that, I can't make you. How you claim to be a true fan of hip-hop yet you're here saying MC's writing their rhymes don't matter is questionable. Writing your rhymes is a SKILL, like playing the guitar or singing. As an MC, again, AS AN MC WRITING YOUR LYRICS MATTERS. PERIOD! POINT BLANK! END OF STORY! This has been the way of being a respected MC probably before you and I were EVEN BORN. Rappers who were known for not writing their rhymes WERE TRASHED! It's been like that! WHY ARE YOU MAKING THIS SHIT SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND? WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO FURTHER LOWER THE STANDARD? HAS IT NOT BEEN LOWERED ENOUGH FOR YOU? YOU ACT AS THOUGH HAVING SOME TYPE OF STANDARD FOR MC'S IS WRONG. THEY DON'T HAVE MUSCH ELSE TO DO BUT WRITE THEIR LYRICS! IT'S LIKE YOU'RE READING AROUND THE SHIT I'M WRITING AND LOOKING INTO THE SMALLEST SECTION WITHOUT TAKING IN THE REST. READ THE WHOLE ARGUMENT THEN COMMENT! AS FAR AS THE EMPHASIS EACH GENRE PUTS ON THE RESPECTIVE SKILLS, YES THEY DO EQUAL UP! JUST LIKE GUITAR PLAYERS TAKE TIME TO LEARN THEIR INSTRUMENT, JUST LIKE SINGERS TAKE TIME TO PERFECT THEIR VOCALS, MC'S SHOULD TAKE TIME TO WRITE THEIR LYRICS! IF YOU WANT YOU WANT TO CONTINUE TO ENABLE HALF ASS RAPPERS WHO ARE LAZY ENOUGH AS IS, THEN GO AHEAD. BECAUSE ITS SEEMS YOU ARE JUST CONTENT ON TRYING TO BE RIGHT RATHER THAN GET THE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTION. DO YOU EVEN CARE ABOUT THE CULTURE OF HIP-HOP, EMCEEING AND THE PRINCIPLES IT WAS BUILT OFF OF? |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| SmokinAces |
And if you can, name what the emcee's responsible for if not the lyrics or the music. AND PLEASE DON'T SAY PERFORMING! Because AGAIN, I CAN COUNT THE AMOUNT OF HIP-HOP CATS WITH KILLER STAGE SHOWS! |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| johnstewart |
i deeply care. i am adamantly against disingenuous people in any walk of life. i think its outrageous for a rapper to spit someone elses shit. i think its outrageous when 'rappers lie in 99% of their rhymes'. i just posed the question. bc i know thats how i feel and thats how the hip hop culture has told me to feel. but im trying to figure out why thats what we as hip hop picked to care about. we let all the bullshit rap pass thinking itll phase out but it only phases out when a wave of new bullshit starts a new phase. why did we not take a stand against bullshit music? as i said before, previous to this post i had not injected any opinion, just fact. If I were wrong I'd be ok with being wrong, but this article wasn't about being right. It was about trying to figure out what is. |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| SmokinAces |
And since you claim this is such common practice, name RESPECTED LYRICISTS who use GHOSTWRITERS? And can I get some real examples not "oh well Jay-Z used a sample" or "Drake borrowed M-1's flow". REAL EXAMPLES KID. |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| SmokinAces |
People let bullshit rap pass because, if it's making money, you're considered a hater who doesn't wanna see cats suceed. Instead of the true music fan who isn't impressed by anything Waka Flocka has to say. Shit is so shook up in the game right now. That's why I needed to know where you stand hip-hop wise. Because the last thing we need is someone lowering the bar anymore than it already is. Sorry I capped you to death, but I was feeling some sort of way lol. |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| johnstewart |
lol im not lowering the bar. im trying to see if people know why its placed where it is. and trying to figure out what the bar is made of. btw. this article was meant to be more about just song writing in general and not specifically ghostwriting, the article was given the name it has by someone other than myself so sorry if that was misleading. ummm..as much as i do or dont want to acknowledge this, ghostwriting def happens. often. i know this. i am not at liberty to give examples. not of what i know and have witnessed anyway. as far as concrete examples go, jay-z said it best when asked abt him ghostwriting for others. he told Vibe magazine that "I get paid a lot of money to not tell you who I write for." Also, I think every one who is a fan of modern rap most likely praises or at least respects 50 Cent's get rich or die tryin. incredible album. went diamond. people view it as 50's best and most thorough work. 50 didnt write a damn song on that cd. which is crazy to think about bc that album feels so personal. but he is not credited for writing a word. There are tons of examples but the fact that its a relatively popular subject in hip hop and the fact that we as fans dont have a ton of real concrete examples, i think, proves that people really are 'ghost writing' |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| JinxtheBoa |
check check |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| JinxtheBoa |
holy hell water and heaven pebbles (I wrote that btw) as a young man of about 10 (I'm 33 now) I was introduced to HIP HOP, maybe even earlier than that. It was an engaging and passionate movement. I was completely enveloped and driven from said point. I took every word to every song to heart from krs1 to mc brains to kriss kross to digital underground and on and on and on. I had no idea, nor care, at the time who actually wrote the songs I embraced. I knwe that I wanted in, I knew that beyond anything in Life, this movement would be a huge part of my Life. Excuse me while I kiss the sky ( I did NOT write that ) now, as a lyricist of 33, my chance to "Make it big" has diminished greatly, yet my passion for the craft has not, it has actually matured and grown into something incredible, by my standards of greatness. I understand every aspect and angle of this "Argument". It seems to me, that over the years, something has taken a great hold over what we know as HIP HOP. While reading this very article, I found it oddly amusing, that, a friend of mine, who ghost writes for a LIVING, contacted me just to say "Hey, Studio session cut early, just saying hello". SHE, yes, she, is an INCREDIBLE artist/lyricist/mother. I add mother for one simple reason-the economic climate- has been allowed to dictate how this machine I mean hip hop operates on a sub level. Now, there are great producers and I mean phenomenal, behind who we all love and adore as Dr Dre. I know this to be a fact. I also know of a handful of "Underground artists" who make it or get by solely on small checks via small records and yes, ghost writing for people that may have what it takes to beast through this heavily guarded, well oiled, complicated machine called HIP HOP. THIS is just the way it IS. My summation, ghost writing is as much apart of the industry as clothing sponsors, tour dates, promotion, performing, hype man hiring, face lifting (character overhauling), studying, actual rapping, singing, listening, feeling and loving, hip hop. to add, if I were to make an album, this summer say, I would employ the sickest of mcs that I know personally to be apart of the creative process. why? Because I alone will not hoard all of the credit for a good or great ep or lp. I want it to belong to my "Family". My flow, my words, my energy, my spirit, MY DIRECTION, MY VISION and MY GOD will be the ultimate creator period, point blank(another borrowed line). I could not, would not(once again, a borrowed line) go it alone. As far as my own personal opinion as an mc who can write his ass off verse for verse song for song, I understand it, and can accept it. Why? Because if there is one thing that I know to be true, an album must be something special in order to get major attention. In order for an arist in that light to make said special product on other peoples time and money, well, a technique that is commonly employed, is to hire a "Gun" someone who isn't attached, that can bring energy, drive, metaphors, lines, hooks and yes, sometimes full verses to the table instantly. |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| johnstewart |
i completely agree. Music as we have come to know it is a business. Though we may 'want' our favorite rappers to write everything they rap, they want to sell. and pulling in outside creative forces that said artist feels will be of benefit to the project only makes sense. |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| JinxtheBoa |
just to add, one more thing I hate doing this, but... When I play chess, for recreation, I want to win on my own merit alone. When I play chess to get better, I want the non participant watching, to help me see what I cannot see. Sometimes the extra help is hindering, sometimes more often it helps. The goal of the GAME is to get better, and achieve mastery. Any master of any trade of any kind, will retort that they learned from others. |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| JinxtheBoa |
twitter @miistersandman (shameless self promotion) |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| SmokinAces |
Alright I see what you're doing. You came to "educate" the people who don't know there are ghostwriters. You didn't come to get an answer for anything. I am giving you the reason why people feel the way they do. You keep saying, well it's happening whether you like it or not. I KNOW GHOSTWRITING EXIST. So does bad contracts, shady hanger ons, disease infested groupies, horrible rappers who make it big, etc. Just because these things exist doesn't make them good for music. And Jinx, LEARNING is not the same thing as having someone DO IT FOR YOU. The goal of the game is to get better, yes. But when you get to a point where you are putting out albums and such you should be able to stand on your own two. Using your analogy, because you guys are twisting things a bit. If you were in a chess match and you had someone telling you every move to make, would you be the great chess player because you touched the pieces? No. So how are you a great MC if you never put pen to pad before. And john, check the credits thoroughly before trying to use something against me. In the credits for Get Rich... it clearly says "All songs were co-written by 50 CENT!!!" On top of that, you really should learn who does what and why they are credited the way the are because if you did, you'd recognize that some of those writers are the musicians and producers who created the INSTRUMENTAL for the song (i.e Luis Resto-keyboards, Andre Young aka DR. DRE, Mike Elizondo- bass, keys, Michael Clervoix aka SHA MONEY XL). Then you have the others such as D. Brown (Young Buck) and C. Lloyd (Lloyd Banks). You might notice these guys. Anyway, pretty sure they get writing credit for WRITING THEIR OWN VERSES! Either you know what you're doing and want to be right so bad you're ignoring it. OR you really don't know how songwriting credit works. If you are a musician and you created the bass line, YOU GET SONGWRITER CREDIT! If you come up with melodies and such, YOU GET SONGWRITING CREDIT! If you're a featured artist and write your own lyrics (why Young Buck wrote his lyrics but you didn't believe 50 did is beyond me) THEY GET SONGWRITING CREDIT. Guess what all these things have in common. NONE OF THEM ARE EXAMPLES OF GHOSTWRITING! Collaboration and ghostwriting are no one in the same. That's why I am having an issue with your argument. Because you haven't given any examples of GHOSTWRITING! I'm not talking about the Will Smiths or Dre's or Diddys. WE KNOW THEY USE GHOSTWRITERS! And guess what, NONE OF THEM ARE RESPECTED AS MC/LYRICISTS! Sorry Jinx, but if your album did well, I would respect it as a creative work and your vision, but I wouldn't respect YOU AS A MC/LYRICIST unless you penned YOUR rhymes. Call me stubborn. If I found out Jay didn't write those lyrics on Reasonable Doubt, he would be out of my top 5, 10, 20 MC's. Because it was those lyrics I feel in love with, it was the lyrics that he wrote that I respected. If we're talking about Dre, i respect him as an amazing producer who knows how to create hits. But AS A LYRICIST, he's nowhere in my top because HE DOES NOT WRITE HIS LYRICS! PERIOD. I mean look at some of the examples you could use: Biggie (respected MC) writing for Kim or Cease Jay-Z writing for Dr. Dre Common and Nas writing for Will Smith T.I. writing for Bow Wow See the correlation. You have a skilled and respected MC and lyricist writing for artist who are not. So, as I said already a million fucking times, but I'll put it out there one more time. I KNOW GHOSTWRITING EXIST IN THE INDUSTRY, PROBABLY MORE THAN I CARE TO KNOW ABOUT! BUT I WILL CAN NEVER FULLY RESPECT SOMEONE AS AN MC AND LYRICIST IF THEY DID NOT WRITE THEIR OWN RHYMES! |
| Posted on May 15, 2010 |
| jconWORD |
Rap is about building "Rap"port with your audience so definitely writing your own lyrics gives you bonus points (if you hot), now if a ghostwriter comes into play the only way I really see it working is for the artist to give input to the writer, but if its down in the songwriting fashion of songwriter writes song then shops song to singer then thats a FAIL in Hip Hop... and yeah the writing credits don't necessarily mean that all of those listed wrote the actual lyrics |
| Posted on May 16, 2010 |
| JinxtheBoa |
I see aces did some research... very valid points indeed. To the articles posed question, I do believe its here. the point that I will continue to make, is this. I no longer care, if Jay Z never wrote a lyric, on his own, a day in a song, in his life. It wouldn't change a thing about what I think of REASONABLE DOUBT as an incredible piece of work. Money is going to continue to change the game, there will still be those artists that pen their own stories as opposed to those that buy the composition book. I promise you, Dre buys his beats. they aren't made by him. a real "Fan" would never believe this, why, because "The Credits say..." The credits can be bought just as well as the person selling them, can be purchased as well. |
| Posted on May 17, 2010 |
| johnstewart |
I feel like I need to make another comment, but I also feel like we're just moving in circles. So I'll say this: As someone who was not raised on hip hop but was introduced to it around the age of 9 or 10, what intrigued me was the music. The art. I wasnt immersed in hip hop culture at the time (living in middle Tennessee) so I wasnt aware of the 'rules'. It never even crossed my mind wondering if Pac wrote 'California Love' or if Jay-Z wrote 'Big Pimpin' or if Big wrote 'Hypnotize'. I was pulled in by the intricacies of their deliveries. Their wordplay. Their personas (idk if thats the correct plural form lol). It wasnt until idk 2002/2003 that I was even aware of what a ghostwriter was. And I still didnt care. But the hip hop culture told me to care. In my opinion as a fan, yes I do believe that artists in any genre should craft the art they are presenting. It doesn't seem right for someone to rap something they didnt write. In my opinion as someone working in the industry, I don't really care. I see how things work. If someone is 'ghostwriting' for an artist, its not just gonna be some bum ass dude. A ghostwriter will be hand picked by an artist because the artist respects that writer's ability to convey a message. If Kanye ghostwrites for Jay-Z, i dont see that as a big deal. If T.I. ghostwrites for Dre, its not a big deal. If Black Milk ghostwrites for whoever, its not a big deal. If x writes for y, its not a big deal. Why? Because its done in the spirit of the art. People dont ghostwrite with intentions of cheapening the song. They 'ghostwrite' out of respect and opportunity (and sometimes financial reasons). That being said, yes I am torn on the subject, because I am a fan first. But I also have a great understanding of how music is made and how things in the industry work, so I'm not really bothered by 'ghostwriting' like hip hop culture claims I should be. @Jcon your point about songs being written and shopped. That happens. Most, if not all, of your favorite artists have most likely purchased multiple finished songs from producers/ songwriting groups. That's standard industry practice in any genre. |
| Posted on May 17, 2010 |
| SmokinAces |
Whateva man. You have your views, I have mine. It seems as though you don't really look at what's being said thoroughly. Maybe I wrote too much so I'll leave with this I DO agree that not not writing is not important as far as QUALITY OF THE SONG. Lots of people have made CLASSICS and not written one word. But writing is EVERYTHING as far as BEING AN MC GOES! You'll never change my mind, or get me to bend at all on that notion. Closing argument, I'M OUT! |
| Posted on May 17, 2010 |
| SmokinAces |
and it's NOT WRITING. My bad. |
| Posted on May 17, 2010 |
| SmokinAces |
And Jinx, Dre doesn't fully create all his beats himself. But he does PRODUCE those records. There's a lot more to producing than making beats. Trust, I'm a student of the game, not just some "fan" and am fully aware of who assist / has assisted Dre (my favorite producer BTW.) |
| Posted on May 17, 2010 |
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